tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post116466987855284099..comments2023-11-03T11:37:04.473+00:00Comments on nothing new under the sun: Archbishop Herft on women and the Biblebyron smithhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17938334606675769903noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-1165249772409745142006-12-04T16:29:00.000+00:002006-12-04T16:29:00.000+00:00Thanks, Byron. It's always important to read what ...Thanks, Byron. It's always important to read what people are actually saying, not just what the media report.<BR/><BR/>As for what he is saying, I see at least one positive in that Herft attacks (certain interpretations of) some passages for reasoning that women are inferior and so should not have particular roles. Discussing this seems much better than the common argument that not being able to Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-1165191051179074822006-12-04T00:10:00.000+00:002006-12-04T00:10:00.000+00:00Michael - After overreading Herft, I'm afraid you'...Michael - After overreading Herft, I'm afraid you're now overreading me.byron smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17938334606675769903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-1165131952768139822006-12-03T07:45:00.000+00:002006-12-03T07:45:00.000+00:00"overread his initial point ..."Man you are SOOO k..."overread his initial point ..."<BR/><BR/>Man you are SOOO keen to let him off the hook Byron! What did you think about the point he was trying to make?<BR/><BR/>BTW, I have defended him from ridiculous personal attack on the Sydney Anglican forums. But there's no need to get all weepy eyed about Roger, really!michael jensenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15379361601019023165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-1165049405027132072006-12-02T08:50:00.000+00:002006-12-02T08:50:00.000+00:00Thanks Byron - very useful points to make.Thanks Byron - very useful points to make.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-1165045072808388352006-12-02T07:37:00.000+00:002006-12-02T07:37:00.000+00:00Marty - in the next sentence he calls it an apolog...Marty - in the next sentence he calls it an apology and says that PFJ accepted it. Of course neither his initial statement nor his apology are perfect. Yet I wanted to make two points in posting this. First, that the media wouldn't bother printing or reporting this. Second, that many Sydney Anglicans offended by the story a few weeks ago overread his initial point (however inappropriate it may byron smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17938334606675769903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-1165041899142344522006-12-02T06:44:00.000+00:002006-12-02T06:44:00.000+00:00"I spokewith Archbishop Jensen and expressed my re..."I spoke<BR/>with Archbishop Jensen and expressed my regret..."<BR/>Sounds quite Howard-esque to me.<BR/>Does this mean that the PM's regret is actually an apology?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-1165018985290663772006-12-02T00:23:00.000+00:002006-12-02T00:23:00.000+00:00Aric - yes, that was how I read it too.Michael - I...Aric - yes, that was how I read it too.<BR/><BR/>Michael - I agree that it's a hostile piece and that he offers a caricature of the passages and of Sydney. But do you think that he's right about the three basic similarities? ("the ultimate authority of the sacred text, the selective use of texts and the belief that those outside were destined for hell")byron smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17938334606675769903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-1165017767947742462006-12-02T00:02:00.000+00:002006-12-02T00:02:00.000+00:00Byron,Again, only as I read it - he seems to be sa...Byron,<BR/><BR/>Again, only as I read it - he seems to be saying something along the lines of - the grounds for extreme mysogyny in certain branches of Islam is not that different from the grounds for the present stance on women in the diocese of Sydney.<BR/><BR/>In other words, do even "mildly patriarchal" societies have the same sinful root as blatantly obvious ones.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-1164983527185522852006-12-01T14:32:00.000+00:002006-12-01T14:32:00.000+00:00'The thought forms that treat women as second-clas...'The thought forms that treat women as second-class human beings have foundational elements that are similar in many repressive religious traditions.' ie, Islam, and Sydney. <BR/>OK, I exaggerate on the rape word. But not much... it was a pretty hostile piece.michael jensenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15379361601019023165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-1164957180457275622006-12-01T07:13:00.000+00:002006-12-01T07:13:00.000+00:00Charlie - thanks for those links. It was good to b...Charlie - thanks for those links. It was good to be able to see the original article.<BR/><BR/>Michael - I'm not sure that his article supports the reading you initially suggested: (<I>Sydney's view on women, like Hilaly's, encourages rape</I>). I take your point about not recognising yourself in his criticisms. Do you recognise any of our friends?<BR/><BR/>Aric - what do you see as his byron smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17938334606675769903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-1164955942376609522006-12-01T06:52:00.000+00:002006-12-01T06:52:00.000+00:00Yes I read the original article carefully. There i...Yes I read the original article carefully. <BR/><BR/>There is an interesting issue about hermeneutics that Herft raises and I think it is unfortunate that his silly rhetoric got in the way. I think he is right to see that the fundamental difference is a hermeneuctical one. And the Sydney group needs to have a convincing and thought hermeneutic. However, in the apology, I don't recognise my own michael jensenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15379361601019023165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-1164953321803499152006-12-01T06:08:00.000+00:002006-12-01T06:08:00.000+00:00I'm not sure if you know this but here is the orig...I'm not sure if you know this but here is the <A HREF="http://www.theage.com.au/news/opinion/christians-are-guilty-of-prejudice-too/2006/11/02/1162339985160.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1" REL="nofollow">original article by Herft</A> (The Age, 3 November).<BR/><BR/>It seems the original was printed in The Age the same day <A HREF="http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/all-religions-degrade-women/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-1164942644783559192006-12-01T03:10:00.000+00:002006-12-01T03:10:00.000+00:00As an American who hasn't heard of Archbishop Herf...As an American who hasn't heard of Archbishop Herft before and wasn't party to the original remark or the apology I'm really not in a position to speak, but I am curious...<BR/><BR/>Is anyone taking seriously the underlying point of the man's remark or are they dismissing the debate entirely on the basis of his inflammatory rhetoric?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-1164935346146893112006-12-01T01:09:00.000+00:002006-12-01T01:09:00.000+00:00I missed the SMH article, but I was glad to be abl...I missed the SMH article, but I was glad to be able to read the link you provided.<BR/><BR/>When our "foes" are misrepresented in the media we too readily accept the distortion, but when it happens to our "friends" we cry foul.Christopherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02031551405442888131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-1164929321790960542006-11-30T23:28:00.000+00:002006-11-30T23:28:00.000+00:00Michael - what I was wondering was whether you rea...Michael - what I was wondering was whether you read his original article or just what came out in the SMH? I only ever saw SMH and wondered how accurately he was being represented. I posted this link because I doubted the media would bother to mention this less exciting second chapter.byron smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17938334606675769903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-1164928986813189152006-11-30T23:23:00.000+00:002006-11-30T23:23:00.000+00:00Here is the key paragraph:The moment I was made aw...Here is the key paragraph:<BR/><BR/><I>The moment I was made aware that my unhelpful link in the article to the current problem<BR/>with the Chief Mufti had caused offence to the Diocese of Sydney and many others, I spoke<BR/>with Archbishop Jensen and expressed my regret. He graciously admonished and accepted<BR/>my apology at what had been taken as an objectionable inference. I have the highestbyron smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17938334606675769903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-1164900568166155162006-11-30T15:29:00.000+00:002006-11-30T15:29:00.000+00:00I was unable to traverse the link to the other sit...I was unable to traverse the link to the other site. Does the Bishop actually ask for forgiveness? That is usually required for genuine reconciliation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-1164883904393075532006-11-30T10:51:00.000+00:002006-11-30T10:51:00.000+00:00No, that was my paraphrase of his first article's ...No, that was my paraphrase of his first article's logic: which I don't think is in dispute.<BR/><BR/>Well I could rephrase it: 'Hilaly encourages rape. You know, Sydney's view is kind of similar logic to his.'michael jensenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15379361601019023165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-1164869944696937732006-11-30T06:59:00.000+00:002006-11-30T06:59:00.000+00:00Do you have the original quote from him in context...Do you have the original quote from him in context?byron smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17938334606675769903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-1164868575936630882006-11-30T06:36:00.000+00:002006-11-30T06:36:00.000+00:00Yes, I am not sure whether I would call this an ef...Yes, I am not sure whether I would call this an effort at 'reconciliation and ongoing dialogue' really. It is an apology.<BR/><BR/>However, he raises an issue worth discussing.michael jensenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15379361601019023165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-1164868499356794312006-11-30T06:34:00.000+00:002006-11-30T06:34:00.000+00:00Well, sort of. I mean, what he said in the first ...Well, sort of. I mean, what he said in the first place was so outrageous - something like: 'Sydney's view on women, like Hilaly's, encourages rape'.<BR/><BR/>Let's not get all dewey eyed about his apology either. I think it is sincere, but he really uses the opportunity to put the slipper in again. Although, since he attacked a hermeneutic I don't hold, I shouldn't feel so sensitive!michael jensenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15379361601019023165noreply@blogger.com