tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post1964786161291830055..comments2023-11-03T11:37:04.473+00:00Comments on nothing new under the sun: Presidents vs Parliaments and electoral reformbyron smithhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17938334606675769903noreply@blogger.comBlogger62125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-36959194789530436622010-05-16T23:04:21.571+01:002010-05-16T23:04:21.571+01:00My apologies too, Byron.
Thinking over my last po...My apologies too, Byron.<br /><br />Thinking over my last post, I was too hard on Steph, I just thought she needed to tone down and not be so condemnatory and one sided.<br /><br />I do think Britain, a country I love deeply, and from which my forbears came has a very difficult road ahead.<br /><br />(and none of these forbears of mine were wealthy, they were without exception, and this typicallyDavid Palmerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12915892358086536345noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-25658750219082092232010-05-16T00:57:31.887+01:002010-05-16T00:57:31.887+01:00ach - too bossy. scrolled down - will address the...ach - too bossy. scrolled down - will address the top: I have and you're wrong. Perhaps it is that I am concerned with healthcare and look for that and you are concerned more with other issues and look for those. No more time, too bossy, too long, wish you'd both stop insinuating I don't read things and I must be ignorant - as per David. I can't believe how unbelievably rude stephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02919095308998395424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-2703386852661551302010-05-15T23:27:01.188+01:002010-05-15T23:27:01.188+01:00OK, clearly time to bail out.
Al, I salute your p...OK, clearly time to bail out.<br /><br />Al, I salute your persistence and gracious responses.<br /><br />Steph, I asked the question about your age, because I couldn’t believe the visceral hatred toward Thatcher that leads you to denigrate her so comprehensively. I expected you to be younger and therefore potentially excusable.<br /><br />I think the NHS was a mistake. People should expect to David Palmerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12915892358086536345noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-87226471251071679072010-05-15T21:15:17.310+01:002010-05-15T21:15:17.310+01:00(cont.)
You claim that my comments are long and te...(cont.)<br />You claim that my comments are long and tedious because I am defending myself. Guilty as charged. Would you rather I left your claims unchallenged and unprobed? Throughout this conversation you have made a number of huge generalizing statements, with little support. You have aired stereotypes and engaged in bitter emotion-driven attacks on positions, rather than taking the time to Alhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01920767090954250373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-80054056745642130412010-05-15T21:05:40.520+01:002010-05-15T21:05:40.520+01:00(cont.)
“I can’t see the moral superiority in havi...(cont.)<br /><i>“I can’t see the moral superiority in having healthcare financed by people paying for the healthcare they get. This is fine for the rich and the healthy, and for middle-class people who can take out insurance policies, provided only that an adequate insurance system is available, as it is in some western countries.”</i><br /><br />This point isn’t under debate and never was. The Alhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01920767090954250373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-71872568006791568282010-05-15T21:03:50.876+01:002010-05-15T21:03:50.876+01:00Steph: I suggest that you look online at the way t...<b>Steph</b>: I suggest that you look online at the way that ‘nanny state’ is used in relation to health issues. The issues that will tend to come up in relation to the term are not the issues of general provision of healthcare, but in reference to attempts on the part of government to force healthy lifestyle choices or health decisions upon people, on the assumption that it knows best. This can Alhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01920767090954250373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-73223648569615410582010-05-15T18:02:26.469+01:002010-05-15T18:02:26.469+01:00While my tender 45 years is irrelevant perhaps Dav...While my tender 45 years is irrelevant perhaps David should consider whether his not living in England is relevant.<br /><br />Neither I nor my colleague, emeritus prof who also lived long before and through the Thatcher years, have heard of this supposedly precise definition of “nanny state” before. We know it only as an abusive term used on the political right by people who don’t care for the stephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02919095308998395424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-23551396420654847352010-05-15T15:05:17.100+01:002010-05-15T15:05:17.100+01:00(cont.)
As for the idea that cuts should affect th...(cont.)<br />As for the idea that cuts should affect the rich just as much as the poor, I am not sure that this is always the course that we should follow. The government’s money doesn’t just fall from the sky like manna, but is raised through borrowing, taxation and printing. The government does not produce money (except through printing, which isn’t really ‘producing’ money in the same way as Alhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01920767090954250373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-88251427929198308482010-05-15T15:03:53.587+01:002010-05-15T15:03:53.587+01:00(cont.)
You refer to David Palmer for the idea tha...(cont.)<br />You refer to David Palmer for the idea that the nanny state includes health care. I fail to see where David referred to the nanny state in his comments. Looking back over David’s comments, I presume that you are referring to this statement:<br /><br /><i>“Steph, please explain why the British people should think that they can keep funding a British lifestyle (e.g. welfare, NHS, etc) Alhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01920767090954250373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-7046216460770781272010-05-15T15:03:23.582+01:002010-05-15T15:03:23.582+01:00Byron: Thanks for bringing that to my attention. I...<b>Byron</b>: Thanks for bringing that to my attention. I should make clear that I was not referring to Steph in that statement, and I am sorry if that impression was given.<br /><br />The comment was an objection to the somewhat facile assumption that all opposition to the present way of doing welfare arises from an uncaring attitude towards the poor or from the self-interest of the richer Alhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01920767090954250373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-87027222066802181362010-05-15T10:43:37.396+01:002010-05-15T10:43:37.396+01:00As I said above, I am finding this conversation ve...As I said above, I am finding this conversation very helpful. However, I'd like to make a couple of gentle suggestions to help us stay communicating well.<br /><br />Al -You said <i> It is even more annoying when many of the people who would make such an assumption are people pontificating in privileged comfort, who have had a lot less personal experience of the lives of the British byron smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17938334606675769903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-24491552462415324722010-05-15T05:05:44.401+01:002010-05-15T05:05:44.401+01:00I did read what you wrote Al although it was very ...I did read what you wrote Al although it was very long and tedious. Don't tell me to read it again. You are paying too much attention to a particular aspect and avoiding the others. Nanny state does include healthcare - see David Palmer for that. I'll be interested to see how the six billion pound cuts in government expenditure affect the rich just as much as the very poor.stephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02919095308998395424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-340987267700864132010-05-15T04:54:36.183+01:002010-05-15T04:54:36.183+01:00I see the rude question and insinuations came from...I see the rude question and insinuations came from David Palmer, who as a minister of religion, cannot see the morality in the existing NHS. This surprises and saddens me greatly. Perhaps his great age has forgotten what health care was like back in the 80s.stephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02919095308998395424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-87509544114540527152010-05-15T02:34:54.489+01:002010-05-15T02:34:54.489+01:00Are you denying that the Lib Dems are closer to th...Are you denying that the Lib Dems are closer to the Conservatives on the libertarian-authoritarian axis? That was my point (alongside the point that for many that axis is more important than the left-right axis). Read what I wrote again. You are paying too much attention to the left-right axis (on that axis Lib Dems are obviously far closer to Labour - I would never deny that).<br /><br />The Alhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01920767090954250373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-52218589592087652662010-05-15T02:08:27.978+01:002010-05-15T02:08:27.978+01:00I've just noticed somebody above arrogantly an...I've just noticed somebody above arrogantly and offensively asked my age - I'm 45. I was 25 when she resigned.I think I said these statements normally come from the political right. And no, the libdems are not closer to the Cons. And before the election they certainly declared they weren't. Now in the coalition they've dumped what made them distinctive. I'm sorry but yourstephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02919095308998395424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-45808129531174985862010-05-14T23:13:59.324+01:002010-05-14T23:13:59.324+01:00(cont.)
Of course, there is no easy solution – bot...(cont.)<br />Of course, there is no easy solution – both meritocracy and inclusivism have their victims. However, I fear that our inclusivist values often discourage social mobility and our unwillingness to cast judgment upon and seek to change the form of culture that pervades in the lower classes and that is often the greatest hindrance to their progress prevent us from taking the sort of Alhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01920767090954250373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-71119586970329338742010-05-14T23:13:41.733+01:002010-05-14T23:13:41.733+01:00(cont.)
I don’t think that it is entirely right to...(cont.)<br />I don’t think that it is entirely right to say that Tory policies have traditionally been particularly aimed at favouring the rich. The Tories under Thatcher really helped the middle classes to improve themselves. Meritocracy was far more central under Thatcher and leaders within the Conservative Party generally came from or sought to identify in some way with lower middle class Alhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01920767090954250373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-23003413852501470292010-05-14T23:10:21.991+01:002010-05-14T23:10:21.991+01:00Steph: I don’t dispute that most Liberal Democrats...<b>Steph</b>: I don’t dispute that most Liberal Democrats would self identify as left rather than right wing. To be honest, I would have expected the number to be even higher. My point was always twofold. First, that there is at least one more axis on the political spectrum (libertarian-authoritarian) and on this axis Conservatives and Liberal Democrats are far closer together than the Liberal Alhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01920767090954250373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-33425715806185459142010-05-14T20:44:43.850+01:002010-05-14T20:44:43.850+01:00Article from the Independent, this govt is not wha...Article from the Independent, this govt is not what we voted for, YouGov poll says 4 to 1 libcons self identify as 'left' over 'right wing'.<br />http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/johann-hari-this-is-not-what-the-people-voted-for-1972830.html<br /><br />I have to agree with a lot of what you said. Two things in particular. You are right about the awful stephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02919095308998395424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-85270622634405261762010-05-14T12:00:41.132+01:002010-05-14T12:00:41.132+01:00One further point: If Thatcher's really destro...One further point: If Thatcher's really destroyed the country and left it in tatters, how on earth did she manage to spend more a longer term in a publicly-elected office than anyone since Lord Liverpool? Why did Labour spend so many years in the wilderness and only manage to return when they rebranded themselves as Thatcherism with a human face (Mandelson: 'we are all Thatcherites now&#Alhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01920767090954250373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-58560441332501855812010-05-14T01:51:58.088+01:002010-05-14T01:51:58.088+01:00Byron: Yes, that is definitely a factor in the big...<b>Byron</b>: Yes, that is definitely a factor in the bigger picture.<br /><br /><b>Steph</b>: I am not wanting to present Thatcher as some sort of hero here. She isn't. I have already made clear that I believe that many aspects of her legacy are profoundly negative. I am just fed up of one dimensional (and frequently hate-driven) accounts of Thatcher and her legacy.<br /><br />If you were a Alhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01920767090954250373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-49577910604719464002010-05-14T01:33:25.996+01:002010-05-14T01:33:25.996+01:00It's nice that you can be so optimistic but I ...<i>It's nice that you can be so optimistic but I am very afraid. Six billion pounds worth of cuts. Health and education.</i><br /><br />Steph, please explain why the British people should think that they can keep funding a British lifestyle (e.g. welfare, NHS, etc) through racking up overseas debt, i.e. one that they are not willing to pay for themselves? The morality of it all quite escapesDavid Palmerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12915892358086536345noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-63243506607674366992010-05-14T01:01:03.459+01:002010-05-14T01:01:03.459+01:00I won't respond anymore. You clearly have a v...I won't respond anymore. You clearly have a very narrow perspective of what happened in the Thatcher years. I've only ever heard a hard nosed Tory try to defend her before. Of course their experience was quite different too. The reality is something quite different. And suggesting that it's "fashionable" to blame the bankers and that top rich percent of the country, stephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02919095308998395424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-58678418517928351102010-05-13T22:56:52.110+01:002010-05-13T22:56:52.110+01:00I realise it is not the whole story, but Thatcher ...I realise it is not the whole story, but Thatcher did also come to power just as North Sea Oil started to generate serious tax income. As I understand it, for much of the decade prior, big oil was enjoying the deal they had struck with a previous Labour government under which they didn't have to pay tax until they had recouped their exploration and development costs.<br /><br />Similarly, thebyron smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17938334606675769903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-38318664715778327832010-05-13T20:56:24.305+01:002010-05-13T20:56:24.305+01:00As regards the causation of the economic crisis, a...As regards the causation of the economic crisis, although it is fashionable to blame the bankers (or the government), the blame must be spread far more widely. People throughout society are willing participants in a culture of cheating, dishonesty, of living beyond our means, of short-termism, of financial imprudence and continued mortgaging of the future to pay for the present. It is this Alhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01920767090954250373noreply@blogger.com