tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post116072721956273138..comments2023-11-03T11:37:04.473+00:00Comments on nothing new under the sun: Heaven: not the end of the world XIIbyron smithhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17938334606675769903noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-66339169524497012262007-01-15T03:42:00.000+00:002007-01-15T03:42:00.000+00:00Andrew - ten points! And yes, you snuck in before ...Andrew - ten <a href="http://nothing-new-under-the-sun.blogspot.com/2006/09/pics-and-points.html">points</a>! And yes, you snuck in before Pete J snapped this one up.byron smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17938334606675769903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-33282688063810424372007-01-14T14:43:00.000+00:002007-01-14T14:43:00.000+00:00Hmm, I don't think anyone has claimed the photo ye...Hmm, I don't think anyone has claimed the photo yet. And I can't see any sign of Pete j. Venice?Andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16463583064610008901noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-1161668843883835772006-10-24T06:47:00.000+01:002006-10-24T06:47:00.000+01:00Steven - since the labour pains have been happenin...Steven - since the labour pains have been happening since the world was subjected to futility, I'm not so sure that Paul was expecting a quick labour.<BR/><BR/>As for the world being a brand new creature, I would have thought that the image was (once more) a combination of continuity and discontinuity: we don't expect something entirely alien to be born, but something very closely related to the byron smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17938334606675769903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-1161668112894758992006-10-24T06:35:00.000+01:002006-10-24T06:35:00.000+01:00'Paul personifies the created order as a woman in ...'Paul personifies the created order as a woman in labour pains, frustrated by bondage to decay, yearning and waiting and groaning - in pain, but hopeful.'<BR/><BR/>Clearly Paul thought that the new world was not the old world transformed , but was instead a brand new creature.<BR/><BR/>And that this will happen very soon.<BR/><BR/>That is the obvious point of saying that the world is in labour.Steven Carrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11983601793874190779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-1161265625899919282006-10-19T14:47:00.000+01:002006-10-19T14:47:00.000+01:00God is always the absolute Spirit that comes to th...<I>God is always the absolute Spirit that comes to the world to fill the world with his presence, immanently and directly.</I><BR/>I assume the problem with this is that it is insufficiently Christological? What do you make of God being 'all in all'? (1 Cor 15.28)<BR/><BR/>And if it is the Spirit of God who fills the world, then isn't this a mediated presence, rather than an immediate one?byron smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17938334606675769903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-1161252490899325342006-10-19T11:08:00.000+01:002006-10-19T11:08:00.000+01:00I understand that Moltmann may well have tempered ...I understand that Moltmann may well have tempered his panentheism in later works but he never actully steps back from his basic Hegelian approach. God is always the absolute Spirit that comes to the world to fill the world with his presence, immanently and directly. The problem is always the extent to which creation is given a distinct but not self grounding existence.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-1161220207574014472006-10-19T02:10:00.000+01:002006-10-19T02:10:00.000+01:00David: Thanks for the summary of his panentheism (...David: Thanks for the summary of his panentheism (≠ pantheism). I haven't read <I>God in Creation</I>, but had picked up hints of this story elsewhere in his writings, and yes I find it problematic. However, is it correct to say that in some of his later writings he works harder at preserving a distinct (though never separate) eternal life for creation. Thus, although in GiC he says 'the world inbyron smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17938334606675769903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-1161162414006909792006-10-18T10:06:00.000+01:002006-10-18T10:06:00.000+01:00As I recall from "God in Creation" the basic plan ...As I recall from "God in Creation" the basic plan is that God makes a space in himself in order to create the universe. The story of God's life is then a matter of him re-entering that space in order to save it from the "Nothingness" which constantly threatens that which is not God. He resolves the crisis with the Nothingness by filling the creation with his presence. It is all to much like Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-1161150022368870642006-10-18T06:40:00.000+01:002006-10-18T06:40:00.000+01:00Thanks Meredith!Christian:But if Christian hope sh...Thanks Meredith!<BR/><BR/>Christian:<BR/><I>But if Christian hope should lead us being so impatient for God to redeem our bodies, why does Paul then say "we wait for it with patience"?</I><BR/>I suspect that Moltmann overstates his case in order to make a point. I think that hope generates both rest and unrest, both patience and impatience. We <I>eagerly await</I> and yet we wait <I>with patiencebyron smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17938334606675769903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-1161128423789512442006-10-18T00:40:00.000+01:002006-10-18T00:40:00.000+01:00Hi Byron, great post. I've been thinking about gro...Hi Byron, great post. I've been thinking about groaning and longing lately and your discussion was really helpful. <BR/><BR/>Also, i wanted to say HAPPY BIRTHDAY for today (wednesday). hope you have a good one!Meredithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05076364508884699137noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-1161078115894836382006-10-17T10:41:00.000+01:002006-10-17T10:41:00.000+01:00What a shame that Moltmann's line of thought ends ...<I>What a shame that Moltmann's line of thought ends up denying any substantial eternal life.</I><BR/>In what way?byron smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17938334606675769903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-1161074738186279982006-10-17T09:45:00.000+01:002006-10-17T09:45:00.000+01:00What a shame that Moltmann's line of thought ends ...What a shame that Moltmann's line of thought ends up denying any substantial eternal life.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-1161070023046926722006-10-17T08:27:00.000+01:002006-10-17T08:27:00.000+01:00Nic - Sorry, my last comment was a little obscure ...Nic - Sorry, my last comment was a little obscure when I re-read it. My fault, not any sponginess on your part! I'm not sure I've said anything directly in this series that would directly criticise <I>The Great Divorce</I>. My main concerns with it, to put them in a nutshell, are the time/eternity split, and that this is located at death. The dreamer is told by <A HREF="http://byron smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17938334606675769903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-1161065073099294152006-10-17T07:04:00.000+01:002006-10-17T07:04:00.000+01:00thanks byron. i think i've been following but not...thanks byron. i think i've been following but not absorbing as spongily as i would like to think :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-1161059738677531182006-10-17T05:35:00.000+01:002006-10-17T05:35:00.000+01:00Nicole, I think there are theological depths in Th...Nicole, I think there are theological depths in <I>The Great Divorce</I> that one can chew on for years. Of course if you've been following this series, you'd realise there are bits of it that I think owe more to Plato (or more accurately, to Augustine) than to the New Testament hope of resurrection. However, I think that Lewis's point in the line you quote is an insightful one. Our present byron smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17938334606675769903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-1161058825903772252006-10-17T05:20:00.000+01:002006-10-17T05:20:00.000+01:00John: yeah, that Moltmann quote hooked me from the...John: yeah, that Moltmann quote hooked me from the first time I read the intro to <I>Theology of Hope</I>. I love how he can use 'goad' and get away with it! That, and two other quotes from Moltmann will always stay with me as summaries of much of his thought. The second is also from the same intro:<BR/>'[Faith] sees in the resurrection of Christ not the eternity of heaven, but the future of the byron smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17938334606675769903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-1161054755618379622006-10-17T04:12:00.000+01:002006-10-17T04:12:00.000+01:00hi byron! i've been quietly enjoying your series ...hi byron! i've been quietly enjoying your series for a while:)<BR/>i've also been reading (and absorbing into my imagination) 'the great divorce' by c.s. lewis - while i appreciate its nature as a fable/allegory, i love the idea he puts forward that 'heaven, once attained, will work backwards and turn even that agony into glory'. i have no idea as to its theological accuracy, but i am rather Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-1161003804617097612006-10-16T14:03:00.000+01:002006-10-16T14:03:00.000+01:00i love that last line in the moltmann quote: "the ...i love that last line in the moltmann quote: "the goad of the promised future..." theology is at its best when it begins to sound like poetry and yet does not lose its rigor.<BR/><BR/>anyway, i have never thought about the groaning passage in quite this way (i.e. as spirituality itself). <BR/><BR/>i may have to spend some time thinking on this...thanks for another great post in this series.John P.https://www.blogger.com/profile/15932170293301607563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-1160985000132365082006-10-16T08:50:00.000+01:002006-10-16T08:50:00.000+01:00So much for the prayers of Jabez then :)So much for the prayers of Jabez then :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com