tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post4234600708823043116..comments2023-11-03T11:37:04.473+00:00Comments on nothing new under the sun: Howard on the end justifying the meansbyron smithhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17938334606675769903noreply@blogger.comBlogger25125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-62257822151432268992007-06-29T05:38:00.000+01:002007-06-29T05:38:00.000+01:00Thanks Jonathan - that's a very helpful comment.A ...Thanks Jonathan - that's a very helpful comment.<BR/><BR/>A further comment about the timing. That the government has decided to act at this point in (electoral) time doesn't mean they are wrong to do something now, but it does highlight their lack of activity for many years. The recent report is far from the first. Yet this is a teritary point.<BR/><BR/>The main point that I'd like to make is byron smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17938334606675769903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-48703476932262486932007-06-26T11:34:00.000+01:002007-06-26T11:34:00.000+01:00Paternalism can work when it is clear that one par...Paternalism can work when it is clear that one party is in the position of parent and the other is like a child. On top of that, even in actualing parenting, the best option doesn't always have the best short term results.<BR/><BR/>There are two issues of intervention here. The territory's self-government is given to it by the federal government, so it can easily be taken back. While the idea Jonathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04663760985851423746noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-56733630673589902992007-06-26T07:56:00.000+01:002007-06-26T07:56:00.000+01:00Having read through the proposals a bit more caref...Having read through the proposals a bit more carefully, I tend to share Noel Pearson's view (<A HREF="http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,21951636-7583,00.html" REL="nofollow">Link</A>:<BR/>1. Somethind needed to be done<BR/>2. The Government's proposed actions are a step in the right direction<BR/>3. There are elements of the Government's proposals that might have been done betterMister Timhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08825856773085135599noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-73730663812969415232007-06-26T07:35:00.000+01:002007-06-26T07:35:00.000+01:00nice update byron. however, while the issue at th...nice update byron. however, while the issue at the centre of your post may not be 'the ends justifying the means', it's definitely being painted into that corner by both the howard camp and the media (see howard's opinion piece in today's smh, 'duty of care justifies government action'), and so is probably still worth considering in those terms...<BR/><BR/>http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/nicohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17122774919449324922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-32140120592033821222007-06-26T07:27:00.000+01:002007-06-26T07:27:00.000+01:00I think the banning of alcohol is the least conten...I think the banning of alcohol is the least contentious of Howard's plans - partly because it is a solution that significant numbers of Aboriginal communities have already adopted. Most commentators have, however, noted, the problems of 'sly-grogging' and people travelling to purchase alcohol at urban centres, which will proliferate. <BR/>Byron, I will post a bit about Woolaning on my own blog. IJoannahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10923073692315462946noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-31301014168027772752007-06-26T07:17:00.000+01:002007-06-26T07:17:00.000+01:00I second Craig's suggestion. It is worth a read. O...I second Craig's suggestion. It is worth a read. One of the key recommendations is 'Empowerment of Aboriginal Communities'. This seems to me to be close to the heart of some of the concerns expressed here.<BR/><BR/>I am glad the PM made the positive comments at the end of his <A HREF="http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/duty-of-care-justifies-governments-action/2007/06/25/1182623817831.html?page=byron smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17938334606675769903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-11490037531925268712007-06-26T05:14:00.000+01:002007-06-26T05:14:00.000+01:00I again urge everyone to at least read the summary...I again urge everyone to at least read the summary of the original report (there is a link on my blog). The authors believe that control of alcohol is critical to having any hope of long term success.Craig Schwarzehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11156017639962303656noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-66483696525730352182007-06-26T04:54:00.000+01:002007-06-26T04:54:00.000+01:00I do agree with Howard in one aspect: if you're go...<I>I do agree with Howard in one aspect: if you're going to assess courses of action, if multiple approaches are roughly equal all else considered, then evaluating them based on results and outcomes is appropriate.</I><BR/>Good point. However, have these measures been used before with effective results? My concern is that while the government is certainly aiming at good results, are these the byron smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17938334606675769903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-32864179851118239932007-06-26T03:46:00.000+01:002007-06-26T03:46:00.000+01:00Nobody is suggesting that we simply leave children...Nobody is suggesting that we simply leave children to be abused - surely we can all agree on the horror and tragedy of the situation for such children. And this is not an occasion for politicking. Frankly, I don't care what Howard's motives are. But I do care that we do the right thing - not something that will make things worse. Surely the Iraq war - and the way in which Saddam's atrocities wereJoannahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10923073692315462946noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-16610144862540148892007-06-26T03:32:00.000+01:002007-06-26T03:32:00.000+01:00Is there a massive problem? I think there is. 'Som...<I>Is there a massive problem? I think there is. 'Something' must be done. My reading of the situation is that the 'something' Howard has chosen to enact is entirely wrongheaded, and while it may deal with abuse problems, it will create wide-spread and long-term social carnage in the NT.</I><BR/><BR/>The Howard governments actions are in line with the recommendations of the NT report, which Craig Schwarzehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11156017639962303656noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-75773127917983040292007-06-26T01:23:00.000+01:002007-06-26T01:23:00.000+01:00jobloggs - i totally agree with your point about u...jobloggs - i totally agree with your point about untrained doctors & police, and the need for proper training and community consultation. but what should be done in the meantime to prevent children from being abused during the (at least) months this will take?nicohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17122774919449324922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-2691825145020066022007-06-26T00:58:00.000+01:002007-06-26T00:58:00.000+01:00Mister Tim: 'every response so far (including ones...Mister Tim: 'every response so far (including ones that recognise the social structures in local communities) has failed and has sometimes served to make things worse'<BR/><BR/>This, I think, is a vast and unhelpful generalisation. One of the problems with Howard's solution, it seems to me, is that it totally fails to acknowledge that some Aboriginal communities have seen significant positive Joannahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10923073692315462946noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-44019592614661109922007-06-26T00:55:00.000+01:002007-06-26T00:55:00.000+01:00hmm. i'm not sure that the end will justify the m...hmm. i'm not sure that the end will justify the means, simply because i'm deeply skeptical that these particular means will bring about the desired ends. it is not just power structures that howard’s plan is overriding – it is people, too. for these types of health and welfare interventions to work, communities need to trust the intervening body and to be able to take ownership of the nicohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17122774919449324922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-57370490985548926692007-06-26T00:31:00.000+01:002007-06-26T00:31:00.000+01:00I would feel far more sympathy for the Howard gove...I would feel far more sympathy for the Howard government's actions if they can actually be proven to work.<BR/><BR/>Cutting off access to alcohol and pornography is not going to magically reduce levels of violence... and certainly not reduce levels of child sexual abuse.<BR/><BR/>In fact, the Howard government's understanding of pedophilia at this point needs to be severely questioned.<BR/><BR/>Neil Cameron (One Salient Oversight)https://www.blogger.com/profile/03143948543305522865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-39941922940960659832007-06-25T23:50:00.000+01:002007-06-25T23:50:00.000+01:00The safety of children is not an 'ends', or an 'ou...The safety of children is not an 'ends', or an 'outcome'... it is a basic condition of human existence that is needed come what may. If it means that liberal democratic principles are contravened, then so much the worse for liberal democratic principles. The so-called rights and freedoms of adults are not to be exchanged for the right children have not to have an adult have sex with them. <BR/>I michael jensenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15379361601019023165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-63164485050840656952007-06-25T22:44:00.000+01:002007-06-25T22:44:00.000+01:00theteak said "what is wrong with paternalism?"Prob...theteak said "what is wrong with paternalism?"<BR/><BR/>Probably this is the heart of my critique of the Howard government's actions. Paternalism is, to my mind, an attitude and policy of treating adults and communities as if they were children - it strips them of moreal and practical autonomy and responsibility.<BR/><BR/>To do so, wholesale, in a liberal democracy is a worry legal and moral stepjeltzzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08016160098665044867noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-70789891488720944372007-06-25T14:11:00.000+01:002007-06-25T14:11:00.000+01:00Hey, wouldn't it be cool if the whole of Australia...<I>Hey, wouldn't it be cool if the whole of Australia said: in order to help in the NT, we will all as a nation foreswear our right to drink alcohol and use porn.</I><BR/>Totally agree, but with the addition of gambling. And yeah, I agree, what is wrong with paternalism? It has become a dirty word among those who have 'non-human identifying companions called doberpersons.'Theteakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04607910963492143603noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-49598845651941432662007-06-25T13:45:00.000+01:002007-06-25T13:45:00.000+01:00jeltzz - I think the evidence on the whole is that...jeltzz - I think the evidence on the whole is that these communities do not have functional, let alone ideal, social structures in place. It may be true that over-bearing respones to situations like this don't tend to work in the long run, but every response so far (including ones that recognise the social structures in local communities) has failed and has sometimes served to make things worse. Mister Timhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08825856773085135599noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-42359402728745693412007-06-25T13:26:00.000+01:002007-06-25T13:26:00.000+01:00Philip, my point is not so much about the destruct...Philip, my point is not so much about the destruction of those existing social structures, but that generally authoritarian and over-bearing responses to situations like this fail in the long-term. Not merely that it is not a long-term solution, but that the impact of a crisis-'solution' itseld will be detrimental in the long-term. <BR/><BR/>On the social structures side, I rather think that jeltzzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08016160098665044867noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-433970644781481112007-06-25T12:16:00.000+01:002007-06-25T12:16:00.000+01:00Hey, wouldn't it be cool if the whole of Australia...Hey, wouldn't it be cool if the whole of Australia said: in order to help in the NT, we will all as a nation foreswear our right to drink alcohol and use porn.michael jensenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15379361601019023165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-40399252214906680622007-06-25T12:02:00.000+01:002007-06-25T12:02:00.000+01:00Surely your recent post on Divorce answers your qu...Surely your recent post on Divorce answers your question about ends ever justifying means.<BR/><BR/>mister tim makes a good point. I'm yet to see anyone show exactly how the 'Howard plan' is unethical.<BR/><BR/>Jeltzz - this is a vastly different scenario to the 'missions' activity. It that time, existing social structures were subverted and deconstructed in order to achieve an aim. You would be Philip Brittonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00314234659985057457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-81323321296931533412007-06-25T10:04:00.000+01:002007-06-25T10:04:00.000+01:00What's wrong with paternalism? We should stop this...What's wrong with paternalism? We should stop this liberal hand-wringing and get on with it.michael jensenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15379361601019023165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-24937785845662917052007-06-25T09:56:00.000+01:002007-06-25T09:56:00.000+01:00Perhaps we should make them have wine and cheese n...Perhaps we should make them have wine and cheese nights Byron?Theteakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04607910963492143603noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-69264300186840374692007-06-25T09:40:00.000+01:002007-06-25T09:40:00.000+01:00Your ultimate question is "Does the end ever justi...Your ultimate question is "Does the end ever justify the means?". This question usually asssumes that the means would be considered unethical taken alone. I'm not sure that's quite the case in this instance.<BR/><BR/>For example, the Commonwealth is already ultimately responsible for the Northern Territory (s.122 of the Constitution). <BR/><BR/>While Howard's argument is that the end justifies Mister Timhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08825856773085135599noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28189019.post-80891388331992331802007-06-25T08:11:00.000+01:002007-06-25T08:11:00.000+01:00I suspect, and like you am perhaps working more on...I suspect, and like you am perhaps working more on hunches than expertise, that Howard's assumption of control is a step back in the whole Indigenous Affairs area. Having just been forced to read a truckload about missions to Aborigines, Howard's intervention looks more and more like the rejection of the last 40 years or so and a determination to impose a paternalistic 'solution', which will be jeltzzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08016160098665044867noreply@blogger.com